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<TITLE>The Answer Guy 29: Removing Lilo from a multi-boot machine </TITLE>
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<H4>"Linux Gazette...<I>making Linux just a little more fun!</I>"
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<P> <hr> <P>
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<!-- =============================================================== -->
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<H1 align="center"><A NAME="answer">
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<img src="../gx/dennis/qbubble.gif" alt="" border="0" align="middle">
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<a href="./index.html">The Answer Guy</a>
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<img src="../gx/dennis/bbubble.gif" alt="" border="0" align="middle">
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</A></H1> <BR>
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<H4 align="center">By James T. Dennis,
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<a href="mailto:linux-questions-only@ssc.com">linux-questions-only@ssc.com</a><BR>
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Starshine Technical Services,
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<A HREF="http://www.starshine.org/">http://www.starshine.org/</A> </H4>
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<p><hr><p>
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<H3><img src="../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" alt="(?)" width="50" height="28"
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align="left" border="0">Removing Lilo from a multi-boot machine </H3>
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<p><strong>From Samuel Posten on 20 May 1998
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<br><br>
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could you please point me to some references regarding removal of LILO
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from a machine that has been set up to run both win 95 and Linux,
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preferably without losing any of the Win 95 partitions.
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</strong></p>
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<blockquote><img src="../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" width="50" height="28" alt="(!)"
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align="left" border="0">
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Boot up a copy of DOS (from a floppy). Any copy of
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DOS later than 5.0 will do. Type
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<tt><a href="http://www.nai.com/vinfo/0323.asp">FDISK /MBR</a></tt>.
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<br><br>
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That's the short form. There are some special situations
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which might require special handling --- but they are
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increasingly rare (special boot sectors used to be used
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for large (greater than 32Mb!) drives to replace the INT 13H
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calls that are normally handled by the BIOS for all
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(real mode) disk handling.
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<br><br>
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(You might boot from your original Win '95 setup diskette
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and exit out of the installation program --- I think that
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trick still works). You should definitely create a bootable
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DOS diskette (that would be MS-DOS 7.0 --- the real OS that's
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hidden under Win '95's interface/GUI).
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<br><br>
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It used to simply be a matter of running the command:
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FORMAT A: /S and copying COMMAND.COM unto a floppy --- but
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MS has probably made it much more complicated these days.
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I honestly haven't used '95 enough to know.
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</blockquote>
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<p><strong><img src="../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" width="50" height="28" alt="(?)"
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align="left" border="0">
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If this can't be done, I'll just have to stick with running LILO, no big
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deal, but its a pain to have to tell it to boot Win 95 each time, as it
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defaults to the Linux system that no longer exists (I wiped those
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partitions and had to make them Win 95 devices.
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</strong></p>
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<blockquote><img src="../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" width="50" height="28" alt="(!)"
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align="left" border="0">
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Sorry to lose another Linux user. However, if MS keeps
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on their current course --- you may be back before you
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know it.
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</blockquote>
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<p><strong><img src="../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" width="50" height="28" alt="(?)"
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align="left" border="0">
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Any help would be appreciated!
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</strong></p>
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<blockquote><img src="../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" width="50" height="28" alt="(!)"
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align="left" border="0">
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This is an alarmingly common question. I've copied
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Werner Almesberger to ask him to consider adding this
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as a note in the <tt>lilo</tt> 'man page' and to the
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authors of the
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<a href="http://sunsite.unc.edu/LDP/HOWTO/Installation-HOWTO.html"
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>Installation-HOWTO</a> (although,
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<a href="http://sunsite.unc.edu/LDP/HOWTO/Installation-HOWTO-8.html#ss8.2"
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>Custom LILO Configuration</a> is worth a look -- it's possible to
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have LILO point at another OS' partition) and the
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"<em><a href="http://sunsite.unc.edu/LDP/LDP/gs/gs.html"
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>Linux Installation and Getting Started Guide</a></em>"
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(the key part of the LDP -- the Linux Documentation Project).
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<br><br>
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I can't promise anything --- but I think (after the countless times
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that I've answered this and seen it answered in the newsgroups) that
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we should include a little section --- one paragraph in most cases
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about <strong>uninstalling</strong> LILO (and a whole section in
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LIGS about uninstalling all of Linux). We're not trying to trap
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people into being "stuck" with our software and it's merely a bit
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of documentation.
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<br><br>
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The problem is that it's the sort of thing that most of
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us old DOS hacks take for granted (I spent years doing
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tech support and repairing MBR's from PC viruses and
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rebuilding partition tables with Norton's DiskEdit).
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<br><br>
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So, let's hope that Matt, Eric, and Werner will consider adding this
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little tidbit to their docs --- and let's hope even more fervently
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that a few of the users out there will <strong>look</strong> at the
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docs for LILO, and will actually read some HOWTO's and guides as
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they consider installing (or uninstalling) Linux.
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<br><br>
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(I supposed we could also contact <a href="http://www.redhat.com/"
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>Red Hat</a>, <a href="http://www.debian.org/">Debian</a>,
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<a href="http://www.suse.com/">S.u.S.E.</a>,
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<a href="http://www.caldera.com/">Caldera</a> and the others to
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suggest that they all add an "Un-install" (Remove) option to their
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boot/setup tools).
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</blockquote>
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<p><strong><img src="../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" width="50" height="28" alt="(?)"
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align="left" border="0">
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Sam Posten
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</strong></p>
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<hr width="40%">
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<H3><img src="../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" alt="(?)" width="50" height="28"
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align="left" border="0">Another reason for Removing Lilo... </H3>
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<p><strong>From Sam Posten on 26 May 1998 </strong></p>
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<br><dl><dd><font color="#333366">>> It depends on the nature of
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the BS virus. Some of them encrypte the logical boot record or
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cross-link the FAT's against their code, or play other games.
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In those cases just blowing away the virus locks you out of your
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system.</font></dl>
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Hmm, its been a while since I've researched virii. Having Viruscan
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running full time has made me lazy I guess!
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</strong></p>
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<blockquote><img src="../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" width="50" height="28" alt="(!)"
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align="left" border="0">
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I used to work for McAfee, and for Norton before them.
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So I have considerable professional experience with
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the critters. Running a good scanner is a good idea.
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(VirusScan is good, FProt and Thunderbyte used to be
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pretty good, as well. The latter two were sometimes
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on the leading edge and sometimes just neck-and-neck
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with McAfee).
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<br><br>
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Since I've left McAfee (now called <a href="http://www.nai.com"
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>Network Associates</a>) I have no idea how their anti-virus
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products stack up. When I left I'd been their Unix sysadmin for
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over a year so I was a little out of the loop by then.
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Now I use Linux/Unix exclusively and haven't dealt with
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any real virus infections for a few years.
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<br><br>
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Actually there was the issue of the "Bliss" virus for
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Linux. This was apparently a "lab strain" that
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"got out" into "the wild." (Yes, these terms are all
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used by computer virus researchers, as rather obvious
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analogues to their biological counterparts).
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<br><br>
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In the case of "Bliss" there were a few people who
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did catch this virus. Naturally they were running
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this new program as '<tt>root</tt>' (breaking the cardinal
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rule of systems administration) and the program
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went and modified some other programs.
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<br><br>
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At the time one of my buddies from McAfee was staying
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with me (he lives down in L.A. and stays up here during
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part of most weeks). He's the head of their AV research
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department. So he and I chatted about it for a couple of
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minutes and concluded that McAfee's existing virus scanner
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for Linux could be updated to detect "Bliss" and he assigned
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one of his AV researchers (also a former housemate of ours)
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to the job and they updated their signature file (<tt>.DAT</tt>). I
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don't recall that any changes were needed for the engine
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(the <tt>.EXE</tt>).
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<br><br>
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This was heralded by McAfee's marketing team as the
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"first live, wild virus incident under Unix." There
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ensued the usual flamefest on USENet
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(<a href="news:comp.virus">comp.virus</a>) which
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argued that this wasn't "really a virus" and that McAfee's
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Associates were hyping it up and taking advantage of the
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situation, etc.
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<br><br>
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"Bliss" did have a command line option to uninstall
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itself. It did, however, modify other programs to
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link its own code into them (which is the definition of
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a computer virus). McAfee did take advantage of the
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opportunity to tout its own horn. The people who
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caught "Bliss" did display gross ignorance of proper
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system administration practice (or, in at least one
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case, foolhardy disregard for it).
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<br><br>
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The bottom line is that a <strong>properly administered</strong>
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Linux system is a very poor host for virus transmission.
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</blockquote>
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<dl><dt><strong><img src="../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" width="50" height="28" alt="(?)"
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align="left" border="0"></strong>
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<dd><font color="#333366">>> In short, stick with Unix/Linux. Using
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these with any modicum of proper system administration practices
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will very likely be the end of your virus hunting days.
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</font></dl>
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<p><strong>
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Gotta use the best tools for each job, and right now that means I
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gotta do windoze at home, at least part of the time. Thanks for
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the insight.
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<br><br>
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Sam
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</strong></p>
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<blockquote><img src="../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" width="50" height="28" alt="(!)"
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align="left" border="0">
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Naturally it does come down to requirements analysis and
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the availability of packages that meet those requirements.
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<a href="http://www.stardivision.com/">Star</a>Office,
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<a href="http://www.applix.com/">Applix</a>ware, and
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<a href="http://www.corel.com/news/1998/may/linux.htm"
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>Corel</a> all seem to be producing
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personal productivity suites for Linux that either rival,
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MS Office, or soon will.
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<br><br>
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However, you define the criteria for "best" when it comes
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to your jobs. It sounds like you're going to keep your
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eyes on the Linux market, and you may find at some point
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in the near future that you do have a choice for your
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applications.
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<br><br>
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It's also important for you to supply your software
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vendor with feedback. If the primary reason you're running
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Windows is to support QuickBooks, call
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<a href="http://www.intuit.com/">Intuit</a> and let
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them know. If you need access to some reference CD's
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(<a href="http://www.grolier.com/">Grolier</a>'s Encyclopedia,
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some electronic <a href="http://www.m-w.com/">dictionary</a>,
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whatever) let the publishers know that you need cross-OS support.
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<br><br>
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(Those CD books are one of the first places in the retail,
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shrinkwrapped software market where I hope to see Java take
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over).
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</blockquote>
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<!--================================================================-->
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<P> <hr> <P>
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<H5 align="center"><a href="http://www.linuxgazette.com/copying.html"
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>Copyright ©</a> 1998, James T. Dennis <BR>
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Published in <I>Linux Gazette</I> Issue 29 June 1998</H5>
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<P> <hr>
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<!--================================================================-->
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<p align="center"><table width="95%"><tr align="center">
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<td rowspan="4"><A HREF="lg_answer29.html"><IMG
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SRC="../gx/dennis/answernew.gif"
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ALT="[ Answer Guy Index ]"i
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align="left"></A></td>
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</tr><tr align="center">
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<!-- begins -->
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<td><A HREF="tag_versions.html">versions</A></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_lilo.html">lilo</A></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_virtdom.html">virtdom</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_kernel.html">kernel</A></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_winmodem.html">winmodem</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_basicmail.html">basicmail</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_betterbak.html">betterbak</a></td>
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</tr><tr align="center">
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<td><A HREF="tag_shadow.html">shadow</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_dell.html">dell</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_dumbterm.html">dumbterm</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_whylinux.html">whylinux</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_redhat.html">redhat</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_netcard.html">netcard</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_macrovir.html">macrovir</a></td>
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</tr><tr align="center">
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<td><A HREF="tag_newlook.html">newlook</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_tacacs.html">tacacs</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_sendmail.html">sendmail</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_dialdppp.html">dialdppp</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_ppp233.html">ppp233</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_msmail.html">msmail</a></td>
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<td><A HREF="tag_procmail.html">procmail</a></td>
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