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<title>Re: Outline for Author's Guide</title>
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<h1>Re: Outline for Author's Guide</h1>
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<li><em>To</em>: Gary Lawrence Murphy <<A HREF="mailto:garym@canada.com">garym@canada.com</A>></li>
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<li><em>Subject</em>: Re: Outline for Author's Guide</li>
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<li><em>From</em>: Kendall Clark <<A HREF="mailto:kclark@ntlug.org">kclark@ntlug.org</A>></li>
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<li><em>Date</em>: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:30:45 -0600 (CST)</li>
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<li><em>Cc</em>: <A HREF="mailto:ldp-docbook@lists.debian.org">ldp-docbook@lists.debian.org</A></li>
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<li><em>In-reply-to</em>: <<a href="msg00026.html">m3puwjcxt5.fsf@maya.linux.ca</a>></li>
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<li><em>References</em>: <<a href="msg00008.html">14410.58586.289062.259723@cmpu.net</a>><<a href="msg00009.html">Pine.LNX.4.10.9912051659410.12745-100000@wallybox.cei.net</a>><<a href="msg00010.html">14411.6824.457038.770755@cmpu.net</a>><<a href="msg00019.html">m3k8mreqwp.fsf@maya.linux.ca</a>><<a href="msg00021.html">14412.9961.253473.998083@cmpu.net</a>><<a href="msg00022.html">m33dtfeosr.fsf@maya.linux.ca</a>><<a href="msg00024.html">14412.13511.822051.573888@cmpu.net</a>><<a href="msg00026.html">m3puwjcxt5.fsf@maya.linux.ca</a>></li>
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<li><em>Reply-to</em>: <A HREF="mailto:kclark@ntlug.org">kclark@ntlug.org</A></li>
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<pre>
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>>>>> "Gary" == Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@canada.com> writes:
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>>>>> "K" == Kendall Clark <kclark@ntlug.org> writes:
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K> ... What I think we're suggesting is that since moving to DB
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K> presents an opportunity to take advantage of SGML features
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K> there needs to be some guidance as to how these features are
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K> used.
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Gary> Yes, exactly my point of blind leading the blind. There are
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Gary> some gross things we can recommend, but I'd want to see
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Gary> someone's idea of a "typical" DocBook output rendered into
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Gary> HTML, PDF, RTF and Postscript before I said even "All
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Gary> sections must begin with titles followed by at least one
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Gary> paragraph before proceeding to any subsection headers"
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There is *no* place on the AG outline where we will do what you talk
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about above. It's simply not there. DB itself my place some similar
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constraints, but <shrug/>.
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Gary> I'm showing my age ;) ... in the days before X made them
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Gary> popular as real things, a "widget" was the typical example
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Gary> for a nondescript part made by an imaginary factor in a
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Gary> textbook problem.
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Gary> I'm open to alternate nomenclature, but calling them "TAGS"
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Gary> doesn't distinguish the complex ones (eg tables or
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Gary> authorgroup with all the proper attributes) from trivial
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Gary> tags like <emphasis>
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Well, the SGML nomenclature is what I use: elements, attributes,
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entities, etc. <table> is an element no less than <emphasis>, it just
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happens to be one that can contain others.
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K> This doesn't mean anything; as I said before, most of the stuff
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K> in the AG is SGML usage stuff, not presentational. The AG isn't
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K> meant to serve as an information design manifesto; rather, it's
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K> meant to lay down a standard that LDP authors can follow so
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K> they can know *how* to use SGML properly, that is, consistently
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K> across a collection.
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Gary> Oh, ok, but I still think we may be talking about the same
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Gary> thing. I'm willing to concede we are not, though.
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Gary> Because DocBook is undiscovered territory, I'm not so
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Gary> certain the answer is obvious. We may say "No, we don't
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Gary> care about those things" or "No, they would be too much
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Gary> trouble", the same things people said about HTML META tags
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Gary> back in 1996
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I don't understand this. It's undiscovered *for whom*?
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[Lots of good questions snipped; many of which lie w/in the purview of
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this committee as I understand it.]
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Gary> The AG is a very good idea, and there is lots that can be
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Gary> done on it, but if we have just one sample document, we will
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Gary> discover things we absolutely wish had been in the AG or had
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Gary> been stated differently.
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This seems like a strawman though. No one here afaik has said anyting
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about zero, one, or many sample documents.
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K> Example: what kind of user feedback do you suspect we'd get
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K> from LDP authors with regard to, say, entity engineering?
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Gary> "You've specified too many" or "Why don't you add XYZ
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Gary> because I am tired of typing it" --- chances are, no, they
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Gary> won't care, but if we have entities we wish to use (eg,
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Gary> every occurance of LDP is replaced with the fully qualified
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Gary> ULINK to the website, ditto with MetaLab) then the author
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Gary> need not repeat the same URLs throughout their text. This
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Gary> is just one example.
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To the first bit of feedback: if you don't need to use some of the
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entities that have been specified, don't use them. To the second: you
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have an entity namespace for your document, add it yourself, and
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here's how.
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Gary> In my own experience, I have modified the scope and
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Gary> structure of my entities lists many times, and I am still
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Gary> not precisely happy with them. Entities are much more than
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Gary> just a shorthand, even though, to an author, they are only a
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Gary> shorthand notation.
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So? Every project redefines entities. That's kind of the point. I
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don't see how that has anything to do with what we do first: tools or
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an AG.
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K> Example: what about naming conventions? We need them, don't
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K> have them, but as they are almost *purely* conventional
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Gary> But are they purely conventional? Are there no technical
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Gary> constraints or conveniencies? Perhaps, but do we know this,
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Gary> or are we just "reasonably sure"
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I said "almost purely conventional". No, there are some constraints,
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but I think they are fairly minimalistic.
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Gary> Also, authors are not the only stakeholders in a document.
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Gary> We need to consider that the work done by the authors, where
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Gary> they probably do not understand the meanings of certain
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Gary> conventions, will affect our own operations (site
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Gary> management, revision control, collaborations &c) and will
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Gary> affect the readers.
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Of course. Getting authors to provide what the backend mechanisms are
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prepared to handle is a large part of the point of an AG.
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Gary> I am only proposing we hold off on some parts.
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Gary> Specifically, sections marked "LDP Style Guide", "LDP
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Gary> Extensions", "I18n Issues", "Mapping DocBook Types to LDP
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Gary> Genres", "Document Reuse", "Marked Sections", "Naming
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Gary> Conventions", and large parts of "Using Entities", "Common
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Gary> Elements" and "MetaData", and even the last section on
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Gary> creating "A Makefile".
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The 2nd list I posted was a discussion list, and it is certainly a
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valid discussion result to just say, 'we don't know the answer to this
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yet, so let's punt.' No one denies that, afaik. No one is saying that
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there will only be 1 version of the AG. No one is saying that it will
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not evolve in response to feedback. No one is saying there won't need
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to be calibration between the backend and the AG.
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But this thread has gotten far off track; the original referent of
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'tools' in 'do we do tools first, second or simultaneous to the AG'
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was 'conversion tools from linuxdoc -> DB', not the backend document
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processing stuff. So, as far as that goes, all the points you make
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about getting the backend and the AG into synch are totally valid, and
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I don't think anyone disagrees with them. My answer to the original
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question is that we should get started on the AG asap. My answer to
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this other question, now posed by the drift of the conversation, is
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that we should work on the AG and the backend more or less at the same
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time.
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Hope that clarifies a bit.
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Kendall
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PS--I don't know how decisions are going to be made on this committee,
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but I've just about exhausted my energy on the 'meta' discussion,
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i.e., how we should proceed. I'm ready to either get started working
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on the AG or wait until work on the AG does start; in the interim,
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maybe I can finish chapter 4 of my dissertation. :>
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--
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</pre>
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<ul><li><strong>Follow-Ups</strong>:
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<ul>
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<li><strong><a name="00029" href="msg00029.html">Re: Outline for Author's Guide</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@canada.com></li></ul></li>
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<li><strong><a name="00032" href="msg00032.html">Re: Outline for Author's Guide</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> "Edward C. Bailey" <ed@redhat.com></li></ul></li>
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</ul></li></ul>
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<ul><li><strong>References</strong>:
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<ul>
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<li><strong><a name="00008" href="msg00008.html">Re: Outline for Author's Guide</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> Kendall Clark <kclark@ntlug.org></li></ul></li>
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<li><strong><a name="00009" href="msg00009.html">Re: Outline for Author's Guide</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> Tim <tjbynum@wallybox.cei.net></li></ul></li>
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<li><strong><a name="00010" href="msg00010.html">Re: Outline for Author's Guide</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> Kendall Clark <kclark@ntlug.org></li></ul></li>
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<li><strong><a name="00019" href="msg00019.html">Re: Outline for Author's Guide</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@canada.com></li></ul></li>
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<li><strong><a name="00021" href="msg00021.html">Re: Outline for Author's Guide</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> Kendall Clark <kclark@ntlug.org></li></ul></li>
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<li><strong><a name="00022" href="msg00022.html">Re: Outline for Author's Guide</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@canada.com></li></ul></li>
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<li><strong><a name="00024" href="msg00024.html">Re: Outline for Author's Guide</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> Kendall Clark <kclark@ntlug.org></li></ul></li>
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<li><strong><a name="00026" href="msg00026.html">Re: Outline for Author's Guide</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@canada.com></li></ul></li>
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