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193 lines
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<title>Re: Rep:Re: Permission to submit HOWTO</title>
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[<a href="msg02915.html">Date Prev</a>][<a href="msg02917.html">Date Next</a>][<a href="msg02908.html">Thread Prev</a>][<a href="msg02918.html">Thread Next</a>][<a href="maillist.html#02916">Date Index</a>][<a href="threads.html#02916">Thread Index</a>]
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<h1>Re: Rep:Re: Permission to submit HOWTO</h1>
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<ul>
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<li><em>To</em>: ldp <<A HREF="mailto:ldp-discuss@lists.LinuxDoc.org">ldp-discuss@lists.LinuxDoc.org</A>></li>
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<li><em>Subject</em>: Re: Rep:Re: Permission to submit HOWTO</li>
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<li><em>From</em>: Bruce Richardson <<A HREF="mailto:brichardson@lineone.net">brichardson@lineone.net</A>></li>
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<li><em>Date</em>: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:33:27 +0100</li>
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<li><em>Mail-followup-to</em>: ldp <ldp-discuss@lists.LinuxDoc.org></li>
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<li><em>Resent-date</em>: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:32:05 -0400 (EDT)</li>
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<li><em>Resent-from</em>: <A HREF="mailto:ldp-discuss@lists.debian.org">ldp-discuss@lists.debian.org</A></li>
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<li><em>Resent-message-id</em>: <_VTq4D.A.vjB.h33S5@murphy></li>
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<li><em>Resent-sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:ldp-discuss-request@lists.debian.org">ldp-discuss-request@lists.debian.org</A></li>
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<pre>
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Gary Preckshot wrote:
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> didn't get the way it is without someone being
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> dissatisfied with vi. Why manually search a tag
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> list when your editor can give you the valid tags
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> at any point? Why type tags, when your editor can
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> do it for you? Why be proud of doing something a
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> bunch of diodes can do? Thinking is what they
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> can't do, but you can.
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This is just more childish insults. Now, apparently, I'm a stupid
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robot. *You*, of course, are thinking but I'm just brainlessly
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following the rut.
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On the contrary, Gary, I think you lack insight into the operating
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system this project serves. Linux is a very well constructed system
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which will run itself once installed, but which also offers incredibly
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fine grained control, providing high-precision tools for the purpose. I
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can go with the default distribution set-up (and in many areas I do), I
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can tweak just here and there or I can completely rewrite things. I
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have that *choice*.
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There's a reason why the basic *nix interface has changed little over 3
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decades: it works - efficiently and well. Many of the tools are
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basically unchanged (though much enhanced) because they are as precise
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and fast as they ever were. Much has been added on top of that and most
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of it is good - but the old tools are still there and still used and
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that is as it should be. Choice has expanded with no loss of power.
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The same philosophy applies to the range of apps available for Linux.
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Sometimes I browse the web with w3m or Lynx, sometimes with Netscape -
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it depends upon the task.
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Vim is one of those high precision tools. I use it because I'm a
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touch-typist who finds the mouse a hindrance except for explicitly
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GUI tasks - there's almost nothing I can't do faster in Vim than in a
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GUI word-processor. Vim does exactly what I tell it to in precisely the
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way I want it to - no unexpected and uncontrollable mannerisms that I
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have to simply work around ( as exist in every GUI WP I ever used ). As
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for the toil of writing out tags - I do 90 wpm, by the time I've thought
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of a tag it's written.
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In addition, Vim/Vi is a standard across *nixes and can be used as the
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editor for a huge range of *nix apps. I write my mail and news in Vim
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and do almost all my text work in it - that standardisation saves me
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having to relearn old tasks in new (as in unfamiliar to me) editors. My
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work machine currently runs Gnome and Enlightenment - but when I
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right-click on a text file and select Edit (or, more likely, use the
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cursor keys to select the file and hit Enter) it runs Vim.
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Where I do run up against Vim's limitations, I simply rope in the many
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modular text tools available on the command line - and from Vi macros.
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This is the real power of the traditional *nix interface: because the
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tools all take text input, give text output and offer precise control
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through command line parameters (just another form of text), they form
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one huge, modular, endlessly-reconfigurable API. The Unix
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Text-interface API (not a term I've ever seen used but it's there). Any
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new tool written in this style is instantly part of the API, offering
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its functionality to all the other tools and able to use the power of
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all those other tools.
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In practice, this means I can add in the feature-set of "more powerful"
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word processors but have complete choice of and control over each
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feature. For example, I can select my choice of spell-checker, having
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previously compiled it to my specs. As another example, I do a fair bit
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of C coding in Vim and I have an IDE as powerful as any commercial one.
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Now, that's the way *I* work. It makes *me* more efficient. I don't
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pretend that it would work for everyone or that those who work
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differently are stupid or ill-informed.
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>
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> Because of a whole lot of folks grimly attached to
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> old ways of doing things, progress depends on
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> iconoclasts who aren't afraid of saying the
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> shibboleth.
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Of course, you are the iconoclast, the rest of us are "rugged
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individualists", the quotes so laden with irony as to deny any possible
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positive interpretation of the term. Is there any limit to your ego?
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> I'll say it here: refusing to use more capable tools is holding you back.
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I've already made the case that the "old" tools are perfectly capable.
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But that's beside the point - and I certainly don't want to discourage
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people from using "new" tools.
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It's not important which tools people use - what is important is that
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there is good information, a clear roadmap/guide to the sgml/DocBook
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tool set that helps people make use of it in whatever style suits their
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M.O. best. Where you have argued for that, I've agreed with a fair bit
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of what you said.
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But you can never say it without simultaneously insulting and putting
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down those with different approaches. You don't seem to feel right
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unless you've "proved" someone else wrong. It's very destructive and
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undermines the genuine contributions you have made (even if they don't,
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in reality, match your inflated opinion of them).
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Personally, it's made this list unusable for me. I'm going to
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unsubscribe, stick to the purely informative lists and get on with my
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projects in an atmosphere where I'm not being constantly belittled and
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insulted by someone who constantly portrays my efforts to contribute as
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a hindrance (at best!).
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--
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Bruce
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It is impolite to tell a man who is carrying you on his shoulders that
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his head smells.
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</pre>
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<strong><a href="msg02915.html">Re: SGML in other applications</a></strong>
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<strong><a href="msg02908.html">Re: Rep:Re: Permission to submit HOWTO</a></strong>
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