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<!--X-Subject: Re: Open Document Environment (ODE) -->
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<title>Re: Open Document Environment (ODE)</title>
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<h1>Re: Open Document Environment (ODE)</h1>
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<li><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:dave@lafn.org">dave@lafn.org</A></li>
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<li><em>Subject</em>: Re: Open Document Environment (ODE)</li>
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<li><em>From</em>: Aaron Turner <<A HREF="mailto:aturner@linuxkb.org">aturner@linuxkb.org</A>></li>
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<li><em>Date</em>: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:37:27 -0800 (PST)</li>
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<li><em>Cc</em>: <A HREF="mailto:ldp-discuss@lists.linuxdoc.org">ldp-discuss@lists.linuxdoc.org</A>, <A HREF="mailto:dwheeler@ida.org">dwheeler@ida.org</A>, <A HREF="mailto:axit@paradise.net.nz">axit@paradise.net.nz</A>, <A HREF="mailto:oswg-discuss@oswg.org">oswg-discuss@oswg.org</A>, Linux Knowledge Base Discuss <<A HREF="mailto:linuxkb-discuss@seul.org">linuxkb-discuss@seul.org</A>></li>
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<li><em>In-reply-to</em>: <<a href="msg01004.html">20000109120113.A378@localhost</a>></li>
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<li><em>Resent-date</em>: 10 Jan 2000 00:37:33 -0000</li>
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<li><em>Resent-from</em>: <A HREF="mailto:ldp-discuss@lists.debian.org">ldp-discuss@lists.debian.org</A></li>
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<li><em>Resent-message-id</em>: <SFtkuB.A.DlF.MnSe4@murphy></li>
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<li><em>Resent-sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:ldp-discuss-request@lists.debian.org">ldp-discuss-request@lists.debian.org</A></li>
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<pre>
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On Sun, 9 Jan 2000 dave@lafn.org wrote:
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> On Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 01:05:21AM -0800, Aaron Turner wrote:
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> >
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> > 0) I think a global mailing list for those projects interested in this is
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> > in order. I know I'll subscribe. I'm sure I can get Roger from SEUL to
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> > sponsor the list on his mail server unless someone feels strongly another
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> > way. odo@seul.org perhaps? Or lodo for Linux Open Doc Org.?
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> >
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> Since it's a goal of LDP to integrate all Linux Documentation, I would
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> like to see LDP as the lead organization for this. We've had a few
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> people working on this (or parts of it): David Wheeler, Peter Elliot,
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> and Paul Jones.
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While I don't really care where the list has a home, I do want to point
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out that there are other projects other than just the LDP which have this
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concept as a goal. I do respect the LDP and what it has done for the
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Linux community, but I'm also concerned that one organization is given too
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much power because we all have different views and beliefs about how
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things should be done. A counsel where each organization has an equal
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voice IMHO is better than one organization leading the effort. Also,
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having the LDP or other Linux centric group as the LKBP heading this may
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make it harder to bring in talent from other OS's like FreeBSD.
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> > 1) Having one specific format (Docbook for example) is great from an
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> > indexing and searching perspective.
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>
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> Another problem with Docbook concerns people that use old PCs.
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> Docbook is slow to compile and uses a lot of memory/disk space.
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yep. However this is only an issue if you store the data locally, which
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of course creates other tradeoffs.
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> > Complicated analogies which have color coded sections and things like that
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> > are confusing,
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>
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> Another reason for not using color is that some people still use monochrome
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> terminals/monitors.
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Fewer and fewer people are limited to only monochrome monitors, but it is
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a consideration never the less. One issue that I'm sure we'll run into
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time and time again is balancing advanced features which help most users
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with locking a small group out because they can't take advantage of those
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features.
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> > 7a) Local/LAN/WAN retrieval is going to be hard. To build a scalable
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> > infrastructure like this is a huge effort.
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>
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> I don't understand this. By local you must mean that the info is on
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> your local PC. Right now all major Linux distributions include the
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> HOWTOs, Manual Pages, and GNU info docs and these get on local PC hard
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> disks. One can go to the HOWTO directory and use grep for searching
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> all of the words (and phrases) in all of the HOWTOs. This works
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> better if the HOWTOs are in plain text format. But then one has to
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> repeat this in different directory trees for non-HOWTO docs. One may
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> search the Debian "Packages" file to find what software is freely
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> available and this file contains a paragraph or two about what each
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> package does. Someone recently came out with a "whatfor" tool that
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> tells you what each system file is used for. Thus we now have methods
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> of searching Linux documentation locally but it's very crude. Should
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> not all this be expanded and improved on?
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Yes documentation exists locally but as you point out it has no
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categorization and is difficult to find. I don't beileve that we can in
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the near future effectively build a system that properly addresses the
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existing inadequacies of the current system for seemless local
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documentation storage within a remote hierarchal storage cloud.
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Putting a bunch of files in a directory does not make a useable
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documentation resource once the number of documents grows beyond a certain
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limit (that limit being the number of lines a person is willing to read
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looking for an answer).
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To scale into the 100's of documents you must use more advanced means for
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storing and retrieving the documentation. The requirements for such a
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system tend to prevent the avg. Joe from installing it for various reasons
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(too hard to do, not enough disk space or RAM, etc). For example the
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backend of the Linux KB is currently about 10MB compressed of application
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source code and scripts. This doesn't even include the docs yet. We're
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using Apache, Ht://Dig, mod_perl, PHP, MySQL and each one has to be
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installed/configured in a certain way to make it work.
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We're much better off building a centeralized repository as this is much
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simpler to develop and maintain, becuase you don't want to try to help
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everyone install this sort of thing on their system. Yes, later on you
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can make it easier and get the distros to include it on their CDROM, but
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that's aways away.
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To put it in perspective, Microsoft doesn't include a copy of the
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Microsoft Knowledge Base with every copy of NT or 98- I think there are a
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number of vaild reasons why.
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> [Regarding advanced information retrieval tools]
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> > Realize that 99.99% of the people will never install it locally and
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> > probably about 98% will not install it on their LAN.
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>
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> Doesn't it depend on the effort needed to install it?
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Absolutely. I guess I believe that this project is going to be database
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(SQL or LDAP) driven. That will lock out a lot of people from trying to
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install it on their own. I've tried doing it without a DB before and
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found it extreemely inadequate in terms of scalability.
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> If it's easy to
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> install and comes with most distributions then I would expect it to be
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> used a lot. It's true that you can have a better system on-line but
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> there's the cost of more traffic on the internet. This traffic cost
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> is much less on a local system (LAN or PC-bus). Both advanced on-line
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> and simpler local info search systems are needed.
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Ok, I can buy that last part. Not sure how to pull it off, but it should
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be doable. However with the Internet moving in the way it is, the need
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for local storage is becoming smaller not only just in the States, but in
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most of the world as well.
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> > 14) Document Browser should be a web browser initially. Once you start
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> > requiring end users to install special software that has other
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> > requirements (such as a viewer using the GTK or QT libraries), your
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> > potential userbase shrinks. Should be Lynx friendly.
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>
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> A problem with html is that we would like to use free software
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> browsers like Lynx. But Lynx is too hard to learn. At present, plain
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> text is often the best choice since most people know how to deal with
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> it. For html there is a need for grep-like searches on sets of html
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> files but we don't seem to have this. Thus I suggest that in addition
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> to browsing with an HTML browser, that plain text searching be also
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> available. In the vim editor one may find the next occurrence of a
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> word by just having the cursor on it and hitting a certain key. One
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> can use this feature something like an html link (even thought it's
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> plain text).
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I guess I feel that Lynx is easier to learn than regular expressions or
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vim. You just use the arrow keys to navigate. I think that this is one
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of those cases where I believe that to have a certain level of
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functionality for the user you have to expect something of the user.
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Things like forms are indespensible for allowing the user to find what
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they're looking for.
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--
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Aaron Turner, Core Developer <A HREF="http://vodka.linuxkb.org/~aturner/">http://vodka.linuxkb.org/~aturner/</A>
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Linux Knowledge Base Organization <A HREF="http://linuxkb.org/">http://linuxkb.org/</A>
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Because world domination requires quality open documentation.
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aka: aturner@vicinity.com, aturner@pobox.com, ion_beam_head@ashtech.net
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The difference between `Unstable' and `Usable' is only two characters: NT
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--
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To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to ldp-discuss-request@lists.debian.org
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with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
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</pre>
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<li><strong><a name="01015" href="msg01015.html">Re: Open Document Environment (ODE)</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> Paul Jones <pjones@metalab.unc.edu></li></ul></li>
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</ul></li></ul>
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<ul><li><strong>References</strong>:
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<ul>
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<li><strong><a name="01004" href="msg01004.html">Re: Open Document Environment (ODE)</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> <dave@lafn.org></li></ul></li>
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