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<!--X-Subject: Re: [off topic] Re: Licensing issues -->
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<h1>Re: [off topic] Re: Licensing issues</h1>
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<li><em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:terry@albert.animats.net">terry@albert.animats.net</A></li>
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<li><em>Subject</em>: Re: [off topic] Re: Licensing issues</li>
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<li><em>From</em>: Gary Lawrence Murphy <<A HREF="mailto:garym@canada.com">garym@canada.com</A>></li>
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<li><em>Date</em>: 20 Sep 1999 02:22:07 -0400</li>
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<li><em>Cc</em>: <A HREF="mailto:ldp-discuss@lists.linuxdoc.org">ldp-discuss@lists.linuxdoc.org</A></li>
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<li><em>Organization</em>: TeleDynamics --- the Art of Being There</li>
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<li><em>References</em>: <<a href="msg00161.html">199909192112.HAA10280@albert.animats.net</a>></li>
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<li><em>Reply-to</em>: Gary Lawrence Murphy <<A HREF="mailto:garym@canada.com">garym@canada.com</A>></li>
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<li><em>Resent-cc</em>: recipient list not shown: ;</li>
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<li><em>Resent-date</em>: 20 Sep 1999 06:23:22 -0000</li>
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<li><em>Resent-message-id</em>: <rH-ubD.A.6VF.ZLd53@murphy></li>
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<li><em>Sender</em>: <A HREF="mailto:garym@mail.wccweb.com">garym@mail.wccweb.com</A></li>
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<pre>
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>>>>> "t" == terry <terry@albert.animats.net> writes:
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>> Let's be honest: The same is true of all 'official' Linux
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>> distributions.
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t> Of course they can. What you suggest is true for Linux
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t> distributions isn't true. The RedHat distribution has been
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t> picked up, tinkered with slightly, restamped with another
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t> another name and sold off. The GPL specifically allows that.
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Tinkered slightly may be the problem: I've heard RH is considering
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branding derived editions differently to distinguish them from the
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'official' release, but this still misses my point. My point was
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that the *physical* distribution, the box, the text, the colour scheme
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and the logo cannot be duplicated or even simulated. The physical
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manifestion of their release is not free, only the aetherial content
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of the CD.
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t> ... "Official" SuSE is only "official" as far as
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t> SuSE is concerned, not the wider Linux community for example.
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With wider community considers the tux.org as an official distro, and
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you and I cannot take that, change it, and redistribute it as tux.org
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Linux. We can, of course, the licence allows it, but it would be
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foolish to do so.
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t> We are free at any time to go and produce a divergent kernel
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Yes, divergent. But we cannot directly change that distro, only
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create a new one. RH's changed kernel, for example, drives me nuts
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with every release, but I know it is a RH kernel, not a tux.org kernel.
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t> Now you have me confused. What is 'official linux' in your
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t> mind? I think you're confused.
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The linux that is produced from the Makefile in the Linux tarballs
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you would download from ftp.tux.org. If you prefer a different word,
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call it the 'reference kernel' but the effect is the same: All the
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others take that, change it, but release it clearly as their own.
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t> Hmm... I think in that case the publishers want to be
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t> commissioning their own documents then. I can understand a
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t> publishing company wanting to protect the value it adds to a
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t> document: indexing, editing, high quality illustration,
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t> typesetting, binding etc. but I don't see how it wins anything
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t> by wanting control of the document content.
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They don't want control of the content, or more precisely, I believe
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they will eventually see they don't need it and will benefit more if
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they let it go. They do need to have control of their box, though,
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just as RH controls their box. We can accept linuxconf as 'free'
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even though it is put into a copyright and exclusive box, and we could
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accept OPL docs, even if they are considered non-free when put down into
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the publisher's box, because the content is free.
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I know full well the situation is not perfect, but I wonder if there
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is a workable middle ground.
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t> but you also want to see Barnes and Noble being the only people
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t> with that up to date version of the book, right?
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Not at all. The LDP would have it long before the publishing process
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can run it through the mill and get it on to trucks. That is the point
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of it all: The LDP gets up to date docs to be distributed as freely as
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software, with the odd restriction that you cannot *print* the sourcecode
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as a single bundle of paper (which is, of course, absurd)
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t> Heh, most of the publishing world is, some publishers have the
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t> jump on the rest :)
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Let's hope so. The first ones to crack this will be moving into an
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uncharted realm, but then, so did RMS back in '94
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>> Keep in mind that I can create an LSL-like RedHat distro, but
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>> if I were to copy the package, CD cover and printed materials
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>> wrapping Red Hat 6.0 and put it on the shelf of a local
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>> bookstore, I expect I would hear from Bob Young's lawyers.
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t> Of course, that is because the wrapping, the name, and the
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t> documentation supplied are not covered by free licenses.
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Exactly, and that is the parallel I'd like to draw with the bound and
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shipped book; they don't own the content, but they own the media. Someday
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I hope they will see that they can allow a competitor to take their
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digital content, wrap it with new covers &c and ship it, and the best
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package will win, but they aren't going to accept that in their first
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attempt any more than commercial shops accepted the GNU C compiler before
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the LGPL.
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t> I don't believe the LDP stands to gain much by having commercial
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t> publishers come in at the expense of abandoning one of the most
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t> important underlying tenets of the LDP, freedom of the works.
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I do. I just spent 4 hours trying to find the answer to a simple
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question. I want to do what any small office does and integrate my
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dialup, fax and voicemail. So what modem, produced since 1995, will
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work with mgetty+fax+voice? The docs tell me to buy a ZyXEL modem
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that has been out of production for years and now sells on eBay for
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$10, and they leave off on USR modems at the 28.8k's
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And it was from a commercial book that I learned to code a module,
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since the khg only confronted me with far too many threaded emails to
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sort out what is current from what is changed. This is not right.
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t> Secondly, you then need to invent a means of dealing with
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t> territorial squabbles. If I, or the LDP, is to be earning any
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t> money from the published works then I'll have them printed by
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t> the most successful publisher please.
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Absolutely, and that is where the responsibility goes to the publisher
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to ensure they also get a return on their investment. Their need for
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profit will anneal to optimum distribution channels (and remember that
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each has different strengths and weaknesses in these channels). You
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should see them jockey for display space on Barnes and Noble!
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I don't want this to be seen as an infringement or a criticism. I
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absolutely without reservation agree that totally free docs are the
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future and the only logical path to success. I was a fan of the
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floundering Project Gutenberg when it had 3 docs in the collection,
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I'm a personal friend of the McLuhan family (I have Eric talked into
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writing some essays under the OPL), I studied with America's most
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famous anarchist composer (John Cage). I have no doubts the world we
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want is inevitable.
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I am just curious about a common ground because I know MCP is not the
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only publisher who wants to do its business while giving a positive
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contribution to the existing Linux community, and I really don't like
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seeing watered down LDP docs being commissioned because the sponsoring
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publisher is saving the good bits for their "annotations" --- I mean,
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I like that they are paying LDP authors and giving them a chance to
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make money doing what they love doing, and I've signed a lot of
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authors for exactly this sort of work, but its the people who may not
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have access to those books who lose if they can't get the real
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information (in any form) without paying for it.
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Right now, the LDP is the raw material from which all the publishers
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are excavating ore, refining and coallating it, indexing and organizing
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it, and then selling it solely for the benefit of the authors and the
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publisher --- the information they list is not their invention, and
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although the authors are doing considerable work to sift the broken and
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outdated from the gems, I would be a lot happier if the end result was
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folded back to improve the LDP in some way; right now, and I include all
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of the publishers, we're being stripmined and outstripped.
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--
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Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@canada.com> TeleDynamics Communications Inc
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Business Telecom Services : Internet Consulting : <A HREF="http://www.teledyn.com">http://www.teledyn.com</A>
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Linux Writers Workshop Archive: <A HREF="http://www.egroups.com/group/linux-hack/">http://www.egroups.com/group/linux-hack/</A>
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"You don't play what you know; you play what you hear." -- (Miles Davis)
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</pre>
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<li><strong><a name="00167" href="msg00167.html">Re: [off topic] Re: Licensing issues</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> terry@albert.animats.net</li></ul></li>
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<li><strong><a name="00161" href="msg00161.html">Re: [off topic] Re: Licensing issues</a></strong>
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<ul><li><em>From:</em> terry@albert.animats.net</li></ul></li>
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