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<H3 align="left"><img src="../../gx/dennis/qbubble.gif"
height="50" width="60" alt="(?) " border="0"
>Control-Left = go left one word doesn't work in X</H3>
<p><strong>From Jay Christnach
</strong></p>
<p align="right"><strong>Answered By Ben Okopnik, Dan Wilder, John Karns, Mike Orr, Karl-Heinz Herrman
</strong></p>
<P><STRONG>
I already spent hours trying to fix this annoying problem:
</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG><BLOCKQuote>
I don't even know if this normally works, but pressing the control and
left-arrow keys simultaneosly should move the cursor one word back.
</BLOCKQuote></STRONG></P>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
Nope, this doesn't normally work - because there's no such thing as
"normally". The kind of functionality you're talking about is specific to a
given piece of software, or, in several window managers, might even be a
sequence that is caught and handled by the WM itself.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [John K]
In the case of many versions of fvwm2, ctrl-arrow key combos move the
mouse cursor. However, it seems that it no longer holds true as of fvwm2
ver 2.3.31 or so (or maybe it was changed by <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/">SuSE</A>).
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
When you ask this kind of a question, you always need to specify which
application you're using. In Unix, one of the guiding principles is "don't
set policy; provide mechanisms." Unlike other OS's GUIs, there's no single
common interface (unless the window manager - <A HREF="http://www.kde.org/">KDE</A> and Gnome are good
examples - enforces one.)
</blockQuote>
<P><STRONG>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" ALT="(?)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
>
Is this a problem in the xkb symbols? Is this a functionality that has to
be provided by the applications and they simply don't have this shortcut?
I don't know anymore where to look to fix this.
Thanks for your help.
</STRONG></P>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Dan]
This is functionality that has to be provided by the application.
</blockQuote>
<HR width="10%" align="left"><P><STRONG>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" ALT="(?)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
>
Thanks for answering and trying to help
</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG>
Well I asked a friend if this keyboard shortcut would work on his Linux box
(Mandrake KDE) and he tried several applications and found that even xvi
provides this kb shortcut.
</STRONG></P>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
Err... Jay? Did you <em>read</em> our answers? Like, the content, not just the
envelope? I'll repeat it again, just in case Dan's one-line statement <EM>and</EM>
my longer explanation weren't clear:
</blockQuote>
<h4 align="center"><br>It's application specific.
</h4>
<blockQuote>
There's no magic file, or download, or anything else that you can install
that will make that combination work in every editor. Whatever the author
of that piece of software decided to put in as the "jump-word" key combo,
that's what you get.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
To correct your misconception, above: it's not "even xvi provides". The
correct version reads "xvi is at least one editor that provides". What
"xvi" provides bears <em>no</em> relation to what an author of another editor
might use.
</blockQuote>
<P><STRONG>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" ALT="(?)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
>
I asked him to send me a copy of his
<TT>/usr/lib/X11/xkb</TT> directory. I suspected there were a missing Keyboard Symbol
in my xkb config (I hacked it for being able to use dead-circumflexes and
diaeresis for my sf keyboard, those were missing in the files which came
with my debian distro)
I use the Gnome Desktop (ximian) and sawfish window manager. I'm pretty
shure that Abi-Word usually is able to handle the CTRL-Cursor thing. (It is
nearly a copy of MS Word).
</STRONG></P>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
Huh? That makes no sense. It's written for a different OS... with a
different programming interface... everything, except the types of files
that it can open is different from MS Word... and you expect the keystrokes
to be the same? They might be - it's not an unusual key combo for the job -
but expecting it is just plain silly.
</blockQuote>
<P><STRONG>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" ALT="(?)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
>
Also in most text-widgets I am able to select the
entire line with shift-Home or Shift-End which is consistent to
ctrl-Shift-Cursor for selecting words and I think this is an accepted
standard or at least should be.
</STRONG></P>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
Ah, <EM>there's</EM> the problem: "accepted standard or at least should be." I
knew there had to be a root cause of all this somewhere, and I'm glad we
discovered it so early - it could get really bad if left to grow and spread
unchecked. Here, let me excise that for you...
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
"Accepted standard" begs the question of "accepted by whom?" "By me" is not
a valid answer; neither is "by MS Windows users." "Should be" according to
you is obviously not a "should be" according to software authors. Since
you're not one (that's a guess, but a fairly informed one), you don't get
to decide what "should be". If the editors that exist don't suit you,
you're always welcome to write one of your own - including whatever
keystrokes you decide it should have.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Mike]
This is a bit harsh. The reason KDE and Gnome exist is because ppl see
the importance of adhering to cross-platform user-interface standards.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
There is a standard for word processors/text editors (regarding how they
treat the arrow keys and select/cut/paste operations) that was
originally set by MacWrite years and years back, because ppl who tried
it found it very intuitive to use and remember.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
&lt;wince&gt; OK, here's a seemingly minor niggle that's got a hidden kicker to
it: the definition of the word "standard". As you're using it here, it
means "what a lot of folks have been using for a while". What it means to
me is "a defined set of specifications." Confuting the two leads to...
well, MS Windows is an example. The querent's original assumption is
another.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
In a way, I find myself agreeing with a minor premise of Jay's: I would
<em>like</em> it if there was such a thing as an "editor keystroke standard" - to
be exact, if there were several of them, each one a well-thought out,
coherent, non-internally-conflicting set of keystrokes. Then, you could
have a "flagship" implementation for each - Emacs, vi, MSWord, whatever -
and all the other editors could then use, say, a library that simply
eliminated the whole bloody job of writing a command parser. Now, throw in
a couple of editors like the old "PE3" from DOS (gosh, I <em>loved</em> that
thing! I <EM>miss</EM> it...) where you could actually modify the "keydefs" file
any way you wanted to - including building macros to be assigned to
specific key combos - and you'd have the world covered.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
All that... yeah, sure... BUT.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
I'm not a software developer. I don't consider myself as having the right
to moan and groan about the issue without being able to make a material
contribution - which, again, would only become a contribution in the full
sense of the word if it passed the "community acceptance test". The only
thing I can do, IM!NSHO, is to put in the time testing the available
editors (I've installed and run <em>every</em> editor available with <A HREF="http://www.debian.org/">Debian</A>, other
than obvious clones, plus a number of others) to see how well they suit me.
If they don't, I don't use them - but I don't complain about them, either;
they obviously suit other people to a tee.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
Had the querent asked STL "I'm looking for an editor that has the same
keystrokes as the ETAOINSHRDLU editor - do you folks know of any?", I could
have probably found something that would help him - and would have been
glad to; I <em>like</em> being able to help people. As it was, I found the fact
that he completely ignored my and Dan's original responses, and the
attitude of "well, <EM>real</EM> editors all have this!", irritating.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
BTW - I wasn't aware that it was MacWrite that used those keydefs
originally. Interesting nybble of info.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Mike]
It has been widely
duplicated in MS Word and practically all Mac and Windows word
processors and text editors ever since. Even the DOS edit command
recognized the sense of this scheme and was compatible with at least
part of it (shift-arrow extends the selection, ctrl-arrow moves by
words, shift-ctrl-arrow does both). However, part of the paradigm
(ctrl-Z/X/C/V for undo/cut/copy/paste) was adopted by everything except
DOS edit and MS Works. (Of course, Mac had to use the clover key
["command key"] because there was no ctrl key on the Mac keyboard at the
time, a stupid unnecessary attempt to improve on standards without
offering anything better, and some programs like Netscape 4 use alt
instead of ctrl, but modifier-key exceptions are easy enough to learn.)
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
&lt;grin&gt; Control-Meta-Hyper-Super-Shift-Top-Front-X? According to The Jargon
File, all of the above were modifiers - <EM>at the same time</EM> - on the LISP
machines' keyboards at MIT (does it surprise anyone that this influenced
the design of Emacs?) "Ten-finger typist", indeed...
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Mike]
In the Unix world, applying this standard wholesale is a bit difficult.
It's fine for graphical programs that imitate Windows/Mac programs. But
vi and emacs have existing standards that conflict with these. Also,
ctrl-C is very commonly used in Unix to mean "abort this program".
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
Also on Unix, you have the problem that when logging in under various
circumstances, the terminal type gets out of sync and the non-typewriter
keys become inaccessible (insert/delete, pgup/pgdown, and sometimes even
backspace). Thus, you must have alphabetic or ctrl-letter keys to
perform these actions as an emergency fallback.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
Also, vi and emacs typists will say they are more efficient
because they never have to take their hands off the typewriter keys.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
If your editor you write now survives
the process of acceptance by the Linux community - i.e., a significant
number of folks start using it - then, <EM>ta-daa!</EM> You've just become one of
the folks who decide what "should be". See how easy that was?
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
&lt;sigh&gt; Pardon me if I sound a bit ascerbic... but, over time, I've grown
rather tired of people who are perfectly willing to use the software that
other people have spent thousands of hours writing - <EM>and</EM> complain about
it. To me, that smacks of - uh, no, <EM>defines</EM> - ingratitude.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Mike]
This is certainly correct, not just for the current situation but in
general.
However, what's really happening here is a clash of worldviews,
which cause two topics that don't have anything to do with each other to
conflict.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
JAY: All programs should stick to the established Windows/Mac standard
re the arrow keys, a standard that has proved itself valuable.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
BEN: Don't you realize that any change you suggest to a program requires
<EM>HOURS OF WORK</EM> by <EM>UNPAID VOLUNTEERS</EM>? Why is it <EM>their</EM> obligation to
code things to <EM>your</EM> specifications?
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
MIKE: The issue that's falling off the table is, is the Windows/Mac
arrow-key standard a good one we should generally adopt, working around
conflicts with existing applications as much as feasable? I say yes.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
If I had any say, my input would be "yes, as one of the standards". One of
the reasons I really like using the editor in Midnight Commander is that it
follows that set of keydefs pretty closely. Now that I've had to grit my
teeth and <EM>really</EM> learn to work with "vi" ("VIM", actually), I find that I
like the functionality - and learning only a small subset of the keystrokes
(plus being able to look up all the others via the help facility) is highly
feasible. Those are the two that I've settled on, and they cover the entire
range of what I need in editors.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
Pretty-text editors (word processors) are an entirely different kettle of
fish. I've found that 99.9% of the time, I don't need them; in Windows, I
used to use them because Notepad was <em>so</em> bad (although GTEdit came very
close to Unix functionality), but with Linux, I have <EM>choices</EM>. The
one-in-a-thousand times when I do need that - making up a sign with large
lettering, for example[1] - either HTML (yechhh) or KWord suffice. I'll be
the first to admit that fancy WP stuff is still not a Known Science under
Linux.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
[1] This seems like such an obvious lacuna that I wonder: is it me? Am I
missing something obvious? There <em>must</em> be some quickie LaTeX thing you can
whip up, or something of the sort; I just can't believe that a gap like
that would exist in Unix, where a part of the philosophy seems to be "small
tools that will roll into and eventually fill every crack". E.g. - I want
to print a sign on an 8.5x11 sheet that says "Welcome!" in letters large
enough to pretty much cover the sheet. Can anyone think of a simple way,
using Unix-native (i.e., not fancy modern GUI) tools?
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [K.-H.]
This requires you to type everything in vi
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/smily.gif" ALT=";-)"
height="24" width="20" align="middle">
cut-paste with mouse is surely
a fancy GUI method, isn't it?
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
Nope; I've got "gpm" running.
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/smily.gif" ALT=":)"
height="24" width="20" align="middle">
Seriously - I meant exactly the type of
solution you're suggesting, and I thank you for relieving my sense of
frustration. I just <EM>knew</EM> that there had to be something of the sort -
although I could wish that it was easier, something like
</blockQuote>
<blockquote><pre>echo 'Welcome!'|makebig --pagesize A4 --stretch-percent 90x90|lpr
</pre></blockquote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [K.-H.]
Would be nice yes, but even TeX has some idea what a scientific paper should
look like. One has to "switch off" lots of things to get something out of the
normal scope.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
I would imagine that a knowledgeable TeXnician could write a macro that
could work that way. I don't know that I want to get into TeX in that much
detail (my previous forays into it left me covered in cold sweat), but I'll
play around with the bits that you've suggested.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [K.-H.]
A TeX Macro, even one which chooses the font size automatically is certainly
possible. On the other hand this is possible with plain <em>postscript</em> .
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
Have a look at <A HREF="http://www.red-bean.com/~bwf/software/cdlabelgen"
>http://www.red-bean.com/~bwf/software/cdlabelgen</A>
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
Thats a perl script which uses a postscript template for creating cdlabels.
On the backside the postscript itself scales the fontsize down if the lines
would be too long otherwise. It should be possible to go that way with lots
more direct control -- but I've never learned the programming language
postscript, never appealed to me as a convenient one
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/smily.gif" ALT=";-)"
height="24" width="20" align="middle">
. But it seems to be
"turing complete" and I know at least one postscript file which prints a
mandelbrot picture -- by <EM>calculating</EM> it. Takes ages on your stock 66MHz
printer if it comes out at all.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
Thank you again!
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [K.-H.]
Hmm..... sorry no oneliner. At least not if you would like the comments.
Will require any standard TeX installation (like tetex 0.X, 1.X),
dvips should be included with tetex, gv would be nice but gs alone will do.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
You need file HugeTexttestTeX.tex containing:
</blockQuote>
<p align="center">See attached <tt><a href="misc/tag/HugeTexttestTeX.tex.txt">HugeTexttestTeX.tex.txt</a></tt></p>
<blockQuote>
then run:
</blockQuote>
<blockquote><pre> &gt; tex HugeTexttestTeX
This is TeX, Version 3.14159 (C version 6.1)
(HugeTexttestTeX.tex
Babel &lt;v3.6h&gt; and hyphenation patterns for american, german, ngerman,
loaded.[1] )
Output written on HugeTexttestTeX.dvi (1 page, 268 bytes).
Transcript written on HugeTexttestTeX.log.
&gt; dvips -T 11in,8.5in HugeTexttestTeX
This is dvipsk 5.58f Copyright 1986, 1994 Radical Eye Software
' TeX output 2001.11.20:1824' -&gt; HugeTexttestTeX.ps
&lt;tex.pro&gt;&lt;8r.enc&gt;&lt;texps.pro&gt;. [1]
&gt; gv HugeTexttestTeX
</pre></blockquote>
<blockQuote>
The vertical spacing/centering caused me a little trouble there. Whats
actually happening in that line starting with the "$" is:
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote><ul>
<LI>switch to mathematical mode (seems to cancel most of the predefined
spacings which we don't want fo a sign
<LI>use a vcenter box (only valid in math mode.....) to center vertically
<LI>give it "glue" to center with (\vfil)
<LI>center the line content horizontally
<LI>choose my huge font and put the Text there
<LI>... closing the "brackets"
</ul></blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
Anyway -- nicely centered "Welcome!" on a landscape letter page. How to get
rid of the pagenumber is left as an exercise, I would recommend ther TeXbook
by Donal E. Knuth to get the details.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
One could also increase the letterspacing in TeX so it would exactly fill the
line instead of adding space left and right of the text -- that's definitely
beyond any M$-word I know of. QuarkExpress has a <EM>very</EM> good control of
things like that though.....
</blockQuote>
<blockquote><pre>$\vcenter to \vsize{\vfil\hbox to \hsize{\Myfont W e l c o m e !}\vfil}$
</pre></blockquote>
<blockQuote>
The spaces help in word too, but they won't stretch as far as here and adding
some more spaces will be necessary and they will never add up to the exactly
same linewidth.....
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
Try that instead:
</blockQuote>
<p align="center">See attached <tt><a href="misc/tag/portrait-large-text.tex.txt">portrait-large-text.tex.txt</a></tt></p>
<blockQuote>
this time it's not landscape so you can just use:
</blockQuote>
<blockquote><pre>tex file[.tex]
dvips -t letter file[.dvi]
gv file[.ps]
</pre></blockquote>
<blockQuote>
One could also become very fancy and write a TeX macro which calculates the
width of a given text and scales <em>that</em> to pagewith by increasing the
fontsize.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
Also in LaTeX there are nice scaling/rotating features which make more
sophisticated stuff possible.
Using a GUI drawing program to make little eps files which are then scaled
comes to my mind.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Mike]
Of course, we'll have to compromise with ctrl-C and ctrl-Z, but emacs
(for instance) already makes its own compromises in that regard.
(ctrl-Z it emulates; ctrl-C it hijacks for another purpose, but provides
a related command "ctrl-X ctrl-C" that does a safe exit).
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
If that sounds
like I'm saying that you have to earn the right to complain, you're right.
Only the fishermen who bring home the fish get braggin' rights; only those
who've put in the effort get to grouse about the results. Anything else is
whining.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
Here is something you <em>can</em> do to contribute instead of complaining, even
if you're not a programmer. Join a list (if one exists) for a given piece
of software and put your dearest wish on the "wish list" - there usually is
one - and if the author likes your idea, it just might get implemented. If
you find an actual bug in the software and report it in detail, most
authors would be grateful.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Mike]
Ben is right. Many distributions have the README files in a standard
place (<TT>/usr/share/doc/PACKAGE/*</TT> on Debian, <TT>/usr/doc/packages/PACKAGE/*</TT>
on SuSE). Look at the READMEs for the offending programs and find the
place to report wishlist items. It may be a mailing list or a bug
tracking system. You can also see whether anybody else has also
requested the same thing. If you know enough programming to provide a
patch, so much the better. If you don't, do you know enough programming
to provide even a few technical details? Those details make the maintainer's
job easier, and may even convince them to provide the enhancement if
they wouldn't otherwise.
</blockQuote>
<P><STRONG>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" ALT="(?)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
>
No, I am no programmer. But I know what it takes to write a program. I have
some knowledge of programming and wrote a few small programs. Also I am not
really complaining, I only thought this thing wouldn't work on my computer
whereas it works on other machines which are configured differently.
</STRONG></P>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
That's why both Dan and I said "application-specific", right off the bat.
It's not you, it's not your computer, and your friends can't do it any
better.
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/smily.gif" ALT=":)"
height="24" width="20" align="middle">
</blockQuote>
<P><STRONG>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" ALT="(?)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
>
I really would like to contribute to the development and debugging,
enhancing of Linux apps. Unfortunately my wife already complains that I
spent too much time in front of the screen and I don't have the time to do
better because of my studies.
</STRONG></P>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
As Mike and I have mentioned, there are many other ways to contribute -
some of which take only a little time and effort. Sending in a detailed bug
report, or adding your favorite item to a wishlist - which may just be the
request that tips the scales - are all good things. Writing up and sending
in an article about your battle with the different key-handling mechanisms,
even though it was a frustrating and eventually bootless experience, would
be another good thing.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Mike]
Yes, that would be a very good article. Would you like to write up your
experiences, Jay, and contrast the keystroke handling of various Unix
applications with non-Unix ones, and explain how the differences impact
the usability of each system?
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
Let us know if you want to, so we can hold off publishing the Answer
Gang thread that's been accumulating. We also can send you a tarball of
the existing messages if that would help provide material for the
article.
</blockQuote>
<P><STRONG>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" ALT="(?)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
>
I think however that it would be a good idea to have a standard for
keybindings.
</STRONG></P>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
As I'd said previously, I agree - with the caveat that it should not be
_a_ standard, but rather a choice of standards, plus an implementation that
lets you build your own.
</blockQuote>
<P><STRONG>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" ALT="(?)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
>
The people contributing to the Gnome project are discussing
about it on their mailing list and I hope that if they find a good
compromise that developers will accept that standard (not only for
Gnome-Apps) .
Thanks again for all of your answers.
</STRONG></P>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
Yes, you too can participate. Complaints about how things "should be",
without a significant contribution of your own, are... tacky.
</blockQuote>
<P><STRONG>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" ALT="(?)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
>
If you had a clue I would be very thankful.
</STRONG></P>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
We have lots of clues - for which I'm certainly very thankful. In fact, we
often have to employ a clue-by-four to drive them home; there are plenty of
times that several of us have found that to be necessary...
</blockQuote>
<P><STRONG>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" ALT="(?)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
>
oh yes I forgot: the Linux Gazette is by far the best Linux magazine,
compared to the magazines I can find in bookshops in lu. I consider
downloading every issue automatically with wget from now on.
</STRONG></P>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Mike]
Thanks. You can also use the FTP files; then you only have to download
one file per issue (plus the base-new file).
</blockQuote>
<HR width="10%" align="left"><P><STRONG>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" ALT="(?)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
>
This will also be the last time I will bother you with my word-jumping
problem. I solved the problem by trying another window-manager, I now
use enlightenment and the ctrl-cursor combo now works in x-emacs, lyx,
mozilla, abiword and probably many other apps. You're still right that
it of course is application dependent as long as you consider the
window-manager as an application.
</STRONG></P>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
Or even if you don't. All that a WM can do, in that regard, is either
intercept keystrokes before they get to the app or not; it cannot make an
application accept keystrokes that it was not programmed to accept, or make
it perform any functions on those keystrokes that were not programmed in.
&lt;Checking several apps&gt; It works for me, in several of the apps that you
named, under "icewm" (my usual WM) and "twm" (the "baseline" WM - does the
minimum necessary to be a WM and nothing more) - but not in a number of
other apps ("xedit", "gvim", "flipbook", etc.) It seems that most widgets
and toolkits, especially the newer ones, do indeed support the selection
method, but, again, it's a per-application thing.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
Obviously, whatever WM you were using before was intercepting your
"Ctrl-cursor" keystrokes (which would prevent them from being seen by the
application). Clearly, "Enlightenment" doesn't do that, at least not by
default - I'm not very familiar with it, but I seem to remember a
configuration panel in it which allows you to capture specific key combos.
</blockQuote>
<P><STRONG>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/qbub.gif" ALT="(?)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
>
If you like I will try different WMs and report which ones do that
trick. This feels much better now
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/smily.gif" ALT=":-)"
height="24" width="20" align="middle">
</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG>
ciao
</STRONG></P>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
That would be great - especially if you could dig a little bit into the
configuration dialogs and see if the "intercept mechanism" can be enabled
or disabled. In "icewm", for example, I can completely disable "keystroke
grabbing" by tapping the scroll lock key, even though I have several
"Ctrl-Alt-" combos defined in my "keys" file.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [K.-H.]
That's neat. I was was just getting used to kde2 (soming along with SuSE per
default) when I found out that I can switch off most key-grabs but <EM>not</EM>
one specific key grab -- Ctrl-Tab. It does some win-like switching between
app-windows.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
Yep; that kind of behavior (defaults that can't be disabled, <EM>tons</EM> of
"pre-made decisions" of that sort that are either difficult or impossible
to change, etc.), plus the fact that it is a huge resource hog, are the
things that completely turned me off KDE/KDE2. I'm sure that some people
love it; in my opinion, it comes closest to the feel of the MSWindows GUI,
more so with every release. Me, I want a WM to do the basics, give me just
a touch of pretty stuff (window ornamentation, toolbar clock, APM display,
etc.) with the ability to turn it all off if I want to - and have a
reasonably small memory and CPU footprint. Over the years, I've tried
pretty much every major WM, and none of the others suit me quite as well.
Besides, Marko Macek (the author) has been reading my mind
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/smily.gif" ALT=":)"
height="24" width="20" align="middle">
- when I
first started using "icewm", I had a few grumbles about some of the
features (or the lack of them), and he's fixed every one.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [K.-H.]
Now I'm an xemacs user and want that key for switching the buffers in xemacs
so fvwm2 is my window manager again
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/smily.gif" ALT=";-)"
height="24" width="20" align="middle">
There I can define the grabs I want and switch off <em>any</em> of the default ones
if necessary.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
I'm aware that I could switch xemacs to a different key, but then just the
idea that I actually coul find no option to switch that off <EM>at all</EM> was
enough to get me "unfriendly" with kde.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
Yep. Give'em their due, though: they certainly have quite a large number of
people enthralled, and a number of the "K suite" apps are rather nice.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [K.-H.]
icewm's feature to toggle them is quite nice. Mybe I'll have a look at that
one sometime soon.
</blockQuote>
<blockQuote>
<IMG SRC="../../gx/dennis/bbub.gif" ALT="(!)"
HEIGHT="28" WIDTH="50" BORDER="0"
> [Ben]
&lt;rubbing hands&gt; The subversion of the innocents continues apace. My plan
for world domination will soon be complete...
</blockQuote>
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